Reclaim You- Workplace Toxicity: Social Work Edition
Season 1: Episode 13- Workplace Toxicity: Social Work Edition with Casey Koch
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This episode of Reclaim You takes you behind the scenes of the lived experience of young social workers. We shed light on various aspects, from job search struggles, advocating for self, establishing boundaries, to dealing with systemic flaws and toxic work environments.
We unpack the pressures of social work that weigh heavily on mental health, leading to fear, unhealthy coping mechanisms, and the urgent need for supportive spaces.
We share our experiences, emphasizing the importance of recognizing our worth, and and giving and receiving meaningful support.
If you've struggled in the workplace, we hope you feel seen and a little less alone throughout this episode!
Thanks for listening to Reclaim You with Reclaim Therapy!
To learn more about Reclaim Therapy and how to work with a therapist on the team, head to www.reclaimtherapy.org.
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[00:01] Sarah: Hi there.
[00:01] Sarah: Welcome to Reclaim You, a podcast published by the Reclaim Therapy team. Join us as we share stories, tools, and insights on how to reclaim you in the wake of trauma, disordered eating, and body shame. Grab your coffee, tea, or your favorite snack and get cozy, because we're about to dive in.
[00:19] Sarah: Welcome back to reclaim you hey, Casey. Hi.
[00:24] Casey: Hi. How you doing?
[00:26] Sarah: I'm doing okay. How are you?
[00:29] Casey: I'm all right.
[00:31] Sarah: Good. So Casey and I took over a recent team meeting, reminiscing about our early social work days out in the community, doing home visits, things like that. Talking a lot about dynamics in the workplace, I guess, particularly as social workers. And we thought it would be interesting to talk about workplaces, particularly maybe toxic workplaces, and how to deal with that, because that certainly is something that a lot of folks that we work with experience. And I think just generally speaking and also, I'm not out in the general workplace anymore, but generally speaking, I think the systems that are in place make for some significant toxicity.
[01:22] Casey: Yes.
[01:28] Sarah: So where should we start in all of this?
[01:33] Casey: My head just explodes. I mean, I think the most significant thing that I am realizing working in private practice is, first of all, what a luxury it is and recognizing privilege when it comes to that, not everybody has the support that it takes to get there. Not everybody. There's a lot of gatekeeping around how to be a social worker in particular, and how to navigate finding a job and how to navigate pay and how to advocate for yourself. I think that is something that's not taught. Right. So you go out into the world, and it's kind of like, okay, figure it out. Right? I mean, going out of grad school, I had no idea what I was absolutely no idea. I couldn't find a job for six months.
[02:40] Sarah: I know. Yeah. It's like a social like, what? I know. Same.
[02:45] Casey: I could not find a job for six months. And I remember being so questioning of myself, like, am I doing the right thing? Is this what I'm supposed to do? Is anybody going to find value in what I have to offer? And it was probably the hardest part of my career, was the very beginning. And I think a lot of therapists and social workers in particular will say that. So for anybody watching, we're both LCSWs, and so we're doing it from a social work perspective.
[03:13] Sarah: A social work perspective. Yeah.
[03:15] Casey: Which is a little different. I really think it starts at the grad school level. I mean, even before that. Right. You need a master's degree license, and then you need experience. It's such a long, tedious process that you do learn a lot, but you don't learn nearly as much as you should. Right?
[03:40] Sarah: No. And you walk into a job where there's so much pressure on you to support people who really need support, right? People are in crisis. And these positions that new grads social work, grads counseling, grads MFTS, everything, right? Walk into these positions and there's so much pressure to know and to get it right. And you're probably working like 60 hours a week and making like $15 an hour, and you have thousands and thousands of dollars in student loan debt. Right. There's so many factors at play, and then the work environments aren't necessarily set up, or certainly aren't set up in our experience. I think to support you, to do really solid clinical work and learn how to take care of yourself and stand up for yourself and set boundaries and decide what's best for your career and all of those things.
[04:39] Casey: Yes, exactly. I'm trying to do a Cliff Notes in my head of what this actually looks like. And I think it's a lack of education regarding the real life of a social worker, the misinterpretation of what a social worker does, a lack of understanding of its multifacetedness. Right. The lack of value that the world puts on our career and our purpose and our calling, and then systems failures. I think all of that in a nutshell, it's not simple at all, right, that goes from micro to macro, right? And I remember working as a bartender when I was in grad school.
[05:44] Sarah: Same girl, same right?
[05:46] Casey: They got to make those dollars. And I remember, yeah, somebody asking me like, oh, what are you going to school for? And I'm like social work. And I'm so excited and pumped. And they're like, oh, sorry, I'm like, what? I got that later, right? For a minute. So I definitely think that the multifacetedness of what we do can really complicate things, right. Because we can be case managers, we can be political advocates, we can be therapists, we can be group coordinators, we can work researchers fields, we can work in prisons, schools, neighborhoods, different kinds of communities. And every one of those systems that we're involved in is broken.
[06:46] Sarah: Absolutely.
[06:47] Casey: Every single one. I mean, we've both worked with the older population and all of the systems failures within that. I have people in my life who've worked with children in foster care and DHS and all of that. And then I worked for a grant based service. All of them have their failures, and it's not necessarily their fault. Right? And I think that's something that I want to put out into the ether is talking about toxic. Workplaces can be a lot of, like, the blame game, right? Like, who's at fault? And I think, again, it goes back to the systems, right. The limitations that agencies have in order to what they can offer people pay wise. I never thought to ask for a raise at any job I had. Absolutely not. That was like, you might get a pay cut, not a pay rate.
[07:51] Sarah: Right? Like, will your grant get renewed? Right? Yeah.
[07:54] Casey: Renewed. Yeah. And you're kind of just hoping and praying for you to have a job for the next six months. But the fact that that money is even offered is something to be grateful for because those programs wouldn't even exist, and those people might not have been helped. So I really have a challenge between like, I have a lot of compassion for the places that I have been and have had experience in my life, and I know that there were limitations, but I think it just causes more anger at the systems.
[08:33] Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right that the agencies, agencies, organizations are all part of the greater system. And so there's stress in the greater system. There's even more stress in the agencies and the small organizations to be profitable and to pay their employees and all of those things. So those are the concrete factors. And then you have just the human dynamic involved in working in a small agency that often becomes very enmeshed and lacks boundaries and can be at times borderline, maybe abusive or things like that. And I think it's hard for anyone. Right. I think that probably corporate people can speak similarly of, like, there's a lot of power at the top, a lot of power at the top. And then there's layers of management that feel like they're meaningless. No one has say, no one has power, no one has control except for the top. And so there can be so much angst within all of these systems that people on the bottom right. Like us worker bees or that's what I consider myself like a worker bee. Social worker. We feel so powerless. And then you have vulnerabilities of being like a people pleaser or having a difficult time setting boundaries or not really knowing who you are as a young social worker in the world and what you want and what your passions are and all of those things. It can be so easy to get swept away in all of the bullshit.
[10:04] Casey: Oh, yes. I just love the fact that we're talking about it because, again, I think that's a part of it, too. The part of the toxicity is that we don't feel safe to talk about these things. Right. We don't want to overstep. We don't want to lose our jobs. Like, you talking about how social workers in the workplace have their own bullshit that they're dealing with. Right. I think also thinking about us working with people who are very vulnerable at a time where we might be vulnerable, and then we get no support in our vulnerability. I mean, you're just surviving. So if there's any busy bee social workers I used to call myself a peasant. You might not want to call yourself that.
[10:59] Sarah: Peasant worker bee. I don't know.
[11:02] Casey: Yeah. If you're out there, know that we hear you. We see you. It is tough. It is tough. I had therapists and social workers before me being like, this is just part of the job. Right. And I think we're finally starting to realize that that can't be part of the job. Yeah, it can't. Burnout is higher than it ever has been before. I mean, COVID we saw that in the medical field and I think because that is a more mainstream, in your face faculty, right. It was seen as like, oh, my gosh, these poor people. And I'm thinking, what about everybody who works in foster care and in nursing homes, in schools? And we're all hurting too. And it's not just COVID it's politics. And every law that gets passed trickles down to us because we have to hold the people who are experiencing these things when Medicaid or Medicare gets ****** up, we're the ones who have to.
[12:11] Sarah: Deal with to know the answers when there's no answers.
[12:17] Casey: No answers.
[12:18] Sarah: Or provide resources when there are no resources. Right, yeah.
[12:24] Casey: And to just keep having to say, I'm sorry, there's only so many times you can do that before you start to question yourself, like, Am I doing enough? I never felt more helpless than working in the community as a social worker.
[12:46] Sarah: Yeah, absolutely.
[12:48] Casey: I think I've had titles that were therapists, but they definitely weren't. They were case manager, they were advocate, they were grocery shopper, they were driver, sometimes chauffeur. I mean, the fact that we don't have protocol because there's nothing really to address it is just awful. And then we have to go home and pay our bills and feed our families and try and take care of ourselves the best that we can. It's not sustainable.
[13:27] Sarah: Absolutely.
[13:28] Casey: I think looking at it the same way we look at diet culture. Right. It's so normalized. And if you're not suffering and you're not yearning for this food or this whatever, you're not doing it right. And I think it's the same way here. You got to earn your stripes, you got to work really hard. And yes, working hard is something learning and exposure to the world around you as a social worker. But the thing that we don't get enough of is support. It's just not there. We might not be able to fix all the systems, but the least we could do is have somebody there that.
[14:13] Sarah: Says care at all. It's like a low bar, really. Just care.
[14:20] Casey: Just be there for a second and then you can leave. Yeah. I mean, early social work days at any place that I've ever experienced has been very lonely. Very lonely. Working in an agency of hundreds of people, it's been lonely.
[14:38] Sarah: Really lonely.
[14:39] Casey: And there's something wrong with that.
[14:42] Sarah: Shouldn't be like that. And then there's this other side, too, of when you are surrounded by colleagues and fellow social workers or members of whatever your team you're on, and everyone is just so burnt out and so miserable. Right. And scared in some ways, to have a voice within these systems, to try to create, change. It's this OD type of bonding experience that quickly also turns toxic because everyone's just kind of, like, cycling around each other in their misery and burnout, feeling powerless and helpless and still having no actual support. Like, yeah, you're supporting one another, and that's wonderful. And there's still no change happening, which can be just so disheartening. And I think that's where a lot of people leave the field. They're like, no, not doing this.
[15:37] Casey: Yeah, no, I love that you speak from that perspective, because that's an experience that I never had. Right? I was never in a place where I was really close to my coworkers. We go to a meeting every once in a while and be like, oh, my God, you got married. You had a child. So many things have changed since I saw you last. And that just used to boggle my mind. But I really appreciate your perspective because I don't have it. And to even imagine that nobody being able to hold space for one another and you're all just sitting around looking at each other, not just sitting around, you're working very hard. But the moment you get a break and you're sitting around like, nobody can hold space for you because they need somebody to hold space for them.
[16:31] Sarah: Yeah.
[16:31] Casey: And that just sounds awful.
[16:35] Sarah: Yeah.
[16:36] Casey: Sounds absolutely awful.
[16:38] Sarah: Absolutely.
[16:39] Casey: So it's really interesting that you have this perspective, right? And for me, it was this island mentality that it was almost more necessary for me to salvage my sanity, was like, I cannot be around people, more people who need me. I can't do it. I don't have anything. And I just remember in terms of we talk about self care all the time as social workers and therapists, and we've talked about it on the podcast, I'm sure. I had none. I had absolutely none. I took a nap every day after work, ate dinner and went to bed again and did the same thing over and over again. I rarely visited or spent time with people because I had no space. I think that was the most depressed I've ever been. Is working out in the community? Yeah, totally.
[17:36] Sarah: Yeah. It's so funny that you say that, because one of the first times I concretely thought, like, maybe I'm depressed was in one of my social work positions in an agency. And at the time, I masked it very well, right? I did my thing, smiled, laughed, whatever. And I remember saying someone like, I think I might be depressed. And they were like, what the **** are you talking about? You're not depressed. And I was like, I just feel so lonely. And no one gets it right? No one sees being on call all the time, being terrified you're going to get screamed at. And then also being with patients and clients who are suffering and holding space for them and then trying to figure out how the hell you're going to take care of yourself on the other end. I think that was actually one of my slides back into an eating disorder was feeling that amount of weight of the world and feeling completely powerless and, like, I don't know what to do, so I'm going to take care of myself by going to the gym, making sure I leave work on time every day. Right. Like, there was the entry point, and there was this very serious point of disconnection, which is interesting because I think also a lot of the folks that we work with can relate to that of, like, work is hard, work is stressful. There's so much going on, so much to manage, so many personalities and pressures and all of those things. And sometimes this escape into feeling kind of numb or like you have some power over something can feel really good. Until it doesn't. Until it doesn't.
[19:07] Casey: Until it doesn't. Oh, my God. Number one, thank you so much for sharing that, because let this be podcast listeners. An example of holding space for one another and feeling seen and heard. Like, you telling that part of your story allows me to feel seen and heard. Right?
[19:28] Sarah: Yeah.
[19:29] Casey: I never told anybody about that. I just kind of went through life and that's just, I guess, how you're supposed to feel, right? Like, absolute **** all the time. That's just right.
[19:43] Sarah: Yeah.
[19:43] Casey: And it happened for so long that it did become normalized. And whether that's, like, whatever coping skill you use, whether that's drugs, alcohol, food, over, exercising, the list can go on and on and on. But there are many social workers who struggle with their mental health. We have to deal with vicarious trauma every single day. Right, and imagine doing that while also not having support and also maybe your life's falling apart behind closed doors that nobody can hold space for or maybe give a **** about. I don't know. Right. So just being able to hear that sometimes that's all it takes. Right. So just throwing in realistic tips and tricks is like, when you have the space, give it to yourself, and then if you have a little bit more, give it to someone else. But telling your story can really be helpful to people. I wish that social workers were comfortable with feeling more vulnerable.
[21:00] Sarah: Totally.
[21:00] Casey: Because I think it would be so much more helpful. I felt like nobody felt what I was feeling. It was because I was young and I was inexperienced that that was just par for the course. And in reality, it wasn't. Everybody feels that way. And thinking about how you can take care of yourself while also understanding that you need to make a living and you need to be stable yourself is very hard. It is, totally. Yeah.
[21:36] Sarah: I remember thinking at one point, like, how in the world am I going to do this for the rest of my life? How am I going to do this? And face these things and this system of hierarchy and these organizations, and then feel powerless and then get promoted, but then also be on call all the time. How am I actually going to live? And then there's like the money factor, right? You're working all the time and you're not making very much money. Which sucks, right? Like resentment.
[22:06] Casey: Oh, my God.
[22:07] Sarah: Of course.
[22:09] Casey: Yes. I think it just goes to, again, these compounding experiences that social workers have. It's the grunt of schooling, right, where you're working two jobs and you have an internship and you're trying to go to class. I wasn't even a human being for like four, five years.
[22:33] Sarah: I know, right? Yeah.
[22:35] Casey: Did I have a pulse? I'm not sure.
[22:37] Sarah: I'm not sure. Was I a zombie? Maybe my daughter goes, I'm a zombie. And I feel like that's what I was.
[22:42] Casey: I'm just like a zombie to think that this is just a sidebar and maybe I'm just like picking at things. But all of that time that I was completely disconnected from myself and totally dissociated to survive, I've had to process some resentment around that. That was normalized. It's unfair. And then you go out into the field and at that time, depending on when you go to school, but for me, I went right after high school, and then I did back to back. So I was, what, 22, almost 23 when I graduated from grad school. I don't even know how to write a check. How am I going to do life and then help some client write a check? And then it's just so much stuff. And so I would hope and maybe this is I always have hope, but I think something that we can't fix the systems right away. But thinking about colleges, maybe they add some extra classes or maybe not even a class. It doesn't even have to be credit, but something offered as a supportive piece of how to take care of yourself or what can life look like when you have a really busy schedule, like a mix between, I don't know, mental health support, but also here's, real life high school needs that too.
[24:16] Sarah: But that's a whole different it's like home EC for social workers. That's what I'm thinking of.
[24:21] Casey: Social workers. Exactly. And I think that that would really be helpful. I mean, at the end of the day, I think social media has definitely put in the forefront talking about the reality of what this looks like. And anybody that's listening out there who has experienced or is experiencing what we have experienced, let it be known that you're seen and heard, and sometimes that has to be enough. You're seen and heard and know that the people who have come before you are trying their best to create environments that are compassionate and healing and supportive. I mean, I'm going to put you on a pedestal for a second. My mental health has never been better.
[25:11] Sarah: Oh, good.
[25:12] Casey: Being a part of reclaim, I think, the things I never realized I needed in a work environment. Just being able to have fun and be realistic, it doesn't mean we don't get our work done, right? We do really good work. But to have fun and to laugh and to have things to smile about, that's important to normalize when you're not doing okay. I've never felt safe being like, I'm tired at a workplace. Oh, God forbid. No, I can't say that. But I said I'm really sleepy.
[25:53] Sarah: I said same.
[25:57] Casey: And I think that alone, that doesn't take too much, but it's really impactful. I think permission to be yourself is important and that could be a podcast for another day. It's just like authenticity in the workplace.
[26:13] Sarah: Yeah, but I'm thinking too, of how as baby social workers, little social workers out of grad school, we were taught so early to just plow through, right? Like, head down, no support, get through it, blinders on, be with your people, figure it out. It can be so hard shifting out of that mentality. And I still struggle with it, right? I've owned the practice since 2016. So we're going into year eight, right? And I still struggle with this permission to take a freaking break, right? To take a vacation and not be on the email and whatever it is all the time, because it was like embedded of, okay, so you're on vacation, but you're going to be on call, right? Like, you're doing this, but you're going to answer, right? And what do I do if this happens? Like, oh, just call me. It was so normalized. So normalized that it can be so hard to just show up and be like, well, ****, I think I am a little burnt out. I think that I do need a solid break and to just take care of myself, right? Like, I love all my clients. I love this entire team. And sometimes we just need to disconnect and take care of ourselves. Yes.
[27:31] Casey: Even the permission. I got an email from one of our team members and it was like, listen, don't answer this until the morning. And I'm like, read it, I'm going to read it, but I won't respond. But just even that consideration, it's a privilege to have that in many ways. But I think when you're looking for jobs out after getting your license, and those are times where you can really advocate for what you need and figuring out what that is, sometimes you're learning that in the places you're not getting it. And that's the one thing that I took from all of those I did take. A lot of. That's a lie. I'm going to back it up for a second. That is not the only thing. I think when it comes to those really hard experiences, I realize how competent and how resilient I actually am. I think everybody does absolutely that no matter if the thing didn't work out or an application got denied or you double booked, you survived the day, you survived the month, you survived the year, and you did the best that you could given the circumstances. And I think everyone has to remember that, that you can't hold on to all of it. Politics have to hold on to some of it, and financial institutions have to hold on to some of that. And society's view has to hold on to some of that and go back and back and back. When you start feeling the pressure, recognize where that's coming from and where it should be directed, because most of the time it's not on you. You're going to gain something out of every experience. It might be like this big, but you get something.
[29:37] Sarah: You do. Absolutely.
[29:41] Casey: Hopefully you feel seen and heard today. Anybody out there?
[29:44] Sarah: Yeah, and I'm just thinking, too, and hopefully when you look back, it can be some defining moment of thinking like, oh, I was worthy of more support. I was worthy of more time, of more grace, of more compassion, of more connection, of more just space for me to figure out who the hell I am looking back for me. I'm like, oh, yeah, I can have a lot of compassion for me as an early 20 something baby social worker thrust into different roles and big roles and expectations, and I didn't know what the hell I was doing. Right. I was just using my intuition with clients. But when it came to other systems, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I was just winging it. And I was so influenced by different factors. And I can see now, of course, you were the way that you were. And thank God, now I see that I was worth a lot more than that.
[30:44] Casey: My heart just grew two sizes. It's true.
[30:48] Sarah: Well, I was going to say the Grinch, but the Grinch started with a really small heart and you didn't start.
[30:51] Casey: With a small heart. No, it's true. And whether you're a social worker or you work in any other field, remember that on the times where you've struggled in your workplace, you probably deserved a lot more. And whether that's a limitation or a choice of wherever you are, that's okay. And I think the thing about being authentic and healing is realizing those things and taking those opportunities to learn what that looks like for you. And maybe that's really small right now. Maybe it's like making sure to drink water today because as a community social worker, I did not drink enough water. So drink water.
[31:43] Sarah: Well, you also kind of have to gauge when to drink the water because you got to gauge where you're going to pass by the different bathrooms. It's nuanced, but yes, drink water, even if it's just on the way. Drink your water.
[31:56] Casey: Yeah.
[31:57] Sarah: Eat your meals right.
[31:59] Casey: Eat your meals right. Talk to a loved one in your life, even if that's just a text, if that's all you've got to give, right? Watch a funny cat video. If you need to go to bed early, go to bed early. These are just simple things that I think could be really impactful. Like, we have to bring it down and really start to simplify our expectations of ourselves during those really challenging times. Remember? Did I eat something? That's the thing that goes out the window. And it's normalized to not take care of yourself. So drink your water. Make sure that you're feeding yourself. Make sure that you're reaching out to someone in your life regularly. And as I always say, as long as you take a shower every other day, you're doing a good job.
[32:56] Sarah: There you go. I love it. I love it. Yeah. So much here. So much here. We might have I feel like we should have a part two, because it's like we could speak on the systems that we don't know about but we hear about, right? I'm thinking about the corporate America.
[33:15] Casey: Yeah, that'd be interesting, right?
[33:17] Sarah: We don't super know about that, but we hear about it, of course, and what it's like to be overworked and high expectations and high pressure in a whole different capacity than what we're used to. But that would be an interesting conversation to have of how people can feel supported in those situations.
[33:42] Casey: Totally sidebar, but maybe thought for the future. I know that Barack Obama did a documentary about the workplaces in different communities and different job positions, so maybe we could do some commentary on that. That would be interesting.
[33:57] Sarah: That would be interesting.
[33:59] Casey: Listeners, let us know if you want us to do a little review of a workplace documentary. Let us know.
[34:05] Sarah: Yeah, that would be a great one. Or what questions you have about navigating your work situation. What about an ask us anything about work, how to navigate stress and all of that stuff.
[34:23] Casey: Oh, my gosh. Okay, so I don't know where you're going to put that, but everybody on the podcast right now. Follow us on Instagram. Follow us on Instagram.
[34:34] Sarah: Somewhere on Instagram. In the story box.
[34:38] Casey: Yes, in the story box. That would be really fun.
[34:42] Sarah: Yeah, let's do it.
[34:43] Casey: Idea. Got it.
[34:45] Sarah: Got it. We should just use the podcast to think of other podcast ideas.
[34:50] Casey: Oh, my God.
[34:50] Sarah: My take home from this.
[34:52] Casey: I love it. I love it. Very cool. Stay tuned, guys.
[34:57] Sarah: Stay tuned. Part two come in next month. Me and Casey will do a part.
[35:01] Casey: Love it. Yeah.
[35:05] Sarah: All right. Anything you want to add, Casey?
[35:09] Casey: No. You're seen, you're heard. We care.
[35:13] Sarah: We know you deserve a lot.
[35:15] Casey: Sometimes you deserve a lot. Take care of yourself the best that you can with what you have.
[35:23] Sarah: Absolutely. And the way that you're coping. Makes sense.
[35:27] Casey: It is. Okay.
[35:29] Sarah: Yeah.
[35:29] Casey: Absolutely.
[35:32] Sarah: Thanks, Casey.
[35:34] Casey: Thank you, Sarah.
[35:36] Sarah: All right, everybody, we'll be back next. Week with another episode. And look out on Instagram for that story box. Maybe I'll put it up a couple of times if I can remember, which I will do my best and Casey can remind me. And, yeah, we'll be back in a month for another part two of Workplace Toxicity or Navigating the Workplace or something like that. But we'll be back next week with a new episode anyway, so we'll talk to you then. Bye, guys.
[36:03] Sarah: Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Reclaim You. Be sure to, like, comment and subscribe and check us out on YouTube at reclaim you. If you're looking to start therapy for trauma disordered eating body image concerns, head over to our website@www.reclaimtherapy.org to learn more about us and our work. We'll be back next week with another episode. Until then, take good care of yourself. Our.
Reclaim therapy specializes in providing body image therapy in Horsham Pennsylvania and online eating disorder therapy in Pennsylvania.
We also provide therapy for childhood trauma and PTSD treatment in Pennsylvania and Horsham, PA.
If you’re looking for support in recovery from trauma, body-shame or disordered eating, we’re so glad you found us.